Curse

Neith · Apr 21, 2010, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by odins daughter

I dont understand how you come to this conclusion..the economy was fine with the 600/sins, if anything they improved it.

and how do you assume that is my conclusion? if you read it correctly i said PEOPLE have complained. I didn't say I complained.

odins daughter · Apr 21, 2010, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neith

and how do you assume that is my conclusion? if you read it correctly i said PEOPLE have complained. I didn't say I complained.

I pressumed you supported their opinion for you to quote them.

Neith · Apr 21, 2010, 05:33 PM // 17:33

I've only been playing a little over 2 years. I wasn't around when gems, ectos, etc where 10k or more. According to everyone else the economy was already broken at that point.

And as far as you forgetting your characters. I have one of each. I work on them a little bit at a time. But I'm not going to try to get GWAMM or anyother titles on them. That doesn't mean I'm forgetting them. They aren't real to be acknowledged as an abandoned child just because you don't have People know me, or GWAMM or my halls smells of rich mahogany. you're missing my point I think, you can't complain and cry about how Anet nerfed everything when you were the one that decided to work on 2 additional characters instead of just the one. Anet never said Odins daughter must work on 3 characters to get the title GWAMM on each one.

Do I agree with Anet on the nerf of SF yes. not because of the economy. That's a whole other ball of wax, and probably for a different thread. You started this thread on the idea of how you didn't want to go through the process of getting titles the "hard" way, because you'd already done it one. I'm sorry to say I can't sympathize on this with you. Because our ideas are different. If you want something bad enough work for it instead of QQ about it, especially if it means THAT much to you. And again, Im sure dungeons can still be run.

WarcryOfTruth · Apr 21, 2010, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by odins daughter

Hm in the dungeons is now impossible, no more runners, very few ppl to make A pug, guildies leaving in their droves.

The once bustling town of Doomlore and umbral are mere ghost towns now, my chances of completing missions and areas for my titles are now badly dented if not shot down in flames.

Haha, dungeons are not impossible in Hard Mode, they require you to actually do something now. Why play the game if all you would do is pay for a run for dungeons? That isn't really playing, and to me is like wasting the money you spent to buy the game.

You want dungeons and missions done? No problem, my guild loves doing HM dungeons and we can help you, whether you join or not. IGN Silence And Despair, pm me at any time, if we plan on doing a dungeon I'd be happy to invite you if we have space, which we usually do

.

Pandora's box · Apr 21, 2010, 11:01 PM // 23:01

The discussion is time vs effort. Of course it's not impossible to do dungeons in HM. Question is if the time it takes is worth the effort. Doing a one hour (or longer) run and find some crap in the end chest is not worth the effort. Doing 3 20 minutes run for the same chest just makes the difference. It's the rewards that make the game imbalanced, not the skills!

Amaurosis · Apr 22, 2010, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

The discussion is time vs effort. Of course it's not impossible to do dungeons in HM. Question is if the time it takes is worth the effort. Doing a one hour (or longer) run and find some crap in the end chest is not worth the effort. Doing 3 20 minutes run for the same chest just makes the difference. It's the rewards that make the game imbalanced, not the skills!

That's the problem. Everyone is under the impression those high-end areas were meant to be cleared in <30 minutes. People didn't put in any time as they ran farming builds/speedclears that provided too good results for pretty much no effort. And because of this flaw everyone grinded to farm high-end areas. I highly doubt that UW was meant to be cleared 15+ times per day by one person(considering if they were able to perform a UWSC in <20min). Anyone could learn how to run SF in less than a day and in return would be able to farm high-end areas for great rewards. There was never an equal balance between the Time+Effort vs. the Rewards.

As for the rewards, they were balanced. Otherwise everyone running Kathandrax or doing UWSC all day long would be obtaining Obsidian and Emerald Edges every 20min or so run. And now that some of the builds are useless/less effective in some areas people are upset because now they're effort+time will have the match the reward output(which should have happened from the start) they've become so accustomed to. As a result people are claiming that some areas are now impossible because the only experience they have in those places was derived from builds merely intended to farm(there are actually people who only know how to run SF and have no idea where to begin in a structured build to play in these "high-end areas").

People were taught to be lazy and receive exponential rewards for it.

Gun Pierson · Apr 22, 2010, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaurosis

That's the problem. Everyone is under the impression those high-end areas were meant to be cleared in <30 minutes. People didn't put in any time as they ran farming builds/speedclears that provided too good results for pretty much no effort. And because of this flaw everyone grinded to farm high-end areas. I highly doubt that UW was meant to be cleared 15+ times per day by one person(considering if they were able to perform a UWSC in <20min). Anyone could learn how to run SF in less than a day and in return would be able to farm high-end areas for great rewards.

The first years of GW (before the speedclears) you could farm 50k an hour and that was nothing special. You didn't have to play a full UW run , just a smite run (< 10 min.) as 55 and get 2-6 ectos at +12k each.

After that, lootscaling and scatter came along and other things that made it harder to earn the same gold as before from playing. So players had to come up with new ways and think as a team (the speedclears). Speedclears are really a succes story of a part of the playerbase. The newly introduced endchests in UW and FoW were a nice reward ofcourse.

Also, a beginner doesn't learn to SF Uw in less then a day, veterans can yes, but we had big topics about the learning curve of GW being to long and difficult, even for what we would consider the basics. Just saying, it's a myth that anyone can learn it in a day. So who used it? Mostly veterans and skilled players (one better than the other), much to the annoyance of other veterans.

Like others have said, I too think there's a problem with the rewards, time/effort/value/excitement of the drop. Imo it's another myth that just playing the PvE game should be rewarding on its own. That works the first time through the game/story line but wears off quickly and the replayability is low.

Amaurosis · Apr 22, 2010, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

So players had to come up with new ways and think as a team (the speedclears). Speedclears are really a succes story of a part of the playerbase.

Also, a beginner doesn't learn to SF Uw in less then a day, veterans can yes, but we had big topics about the learning curve of GW being to long and difficult, even for what we would consider the basics. Just saying, it's a myth that anyone can learn it in a day. So who used it? Mostly veterans and skilled players (one better than the other), much to the annoyance of other veterans.

SF isn't hard to learn. The concept is so simple even a newcomer can understand it: Make myself invincible by maintaining skill X on myself. Use skills Y and Z prior to using X so I will remain invincible. Prior to X recharging make sure I am under the effects of Y and Z.
Even though there are those who have had trouble, the general masses quickly learned SF as places such as ToA was packed with A/E, A/N, A/Me, and i'm pretty sure A/D and A/Mo to some extent.
I don't believe speedclears are in any way a marvel of the playerbase. An example of that would be sharing and learning how to run a build that actually challenges the player to apply critical thinking when using the build. Not effortlessly farming just to have profits and rewards. The playerbase turned PvE into farm orgy and this was supported through some new content and allowing builds like SF to last more than a week.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Like others have said, I too think there's a problem with the rewards, time/effort/value/excitement of the drop. Imo it's another myth that just playing the PvE game should be rewarding on its own. That works the first time through the game/story line but wears off quickly and the replayability is low.

That's subjective, as people can declare PvE dull as much as they want but that's their own fault. If you can no longer find anything to do in PvE then that is a result of a player's endless grind with builds providing imbalance results in regards to the effort that must be put into them. Look at how many people have grinded GWAMM on numerous characters and now find themselves bored.
Nobody told anyone to hop online and copy a build to farm areas with so much ease they could basically stand there doing nothing for 3 minutes and watch all the enemies die. People chose the easy way out and resorted to OP and gimmick builds to obtain a goal. They chose to run builds that do not test their abilities and feel as though some of their rewards are useless as a result, claiming that this game offers them no entertainment anymore. I'm pretty sure if people actually took the time to apply tactics to the areas they chose to abuse with farming, they would have actually enjoyed themselves as they actually attempted and learned to succeed with something they put time and devotion into. However, that's not the case. The current trend is "give me a build, I want to get this done, but I don't want to have to actually do it".

Deakon · Apr 22, 2010, 02:35 AM // 02:35

The recent changes to skill balance have negatively impacted my game play more so than people who abused OP skills ever have. I think that's as simply put as I can make it.

Gun Pierson · Apr 22, 2010, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaurosis

...

I agree with you that Anet stepped in too late (if that was their original intention anyway) and that's exactly why they should watch out for collateral damage as fun might be subjective but a lot of mindlike subjects form a group.

Perkunas · Apr 22, 2010, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Since the SF & 600/Smite nerfs, I have been trying to find how to explain my thoughts, using some real life comparisons.

In life, the idea has been to get faster at doing things. Production lines getting sped up and the number of people reduced, to improve the bottom line.

Instead of using paper & pencil to make calculations or doing them in your head, first calculators, then computers took over the job, to improve time and accuracy. In my younger days, portable calculators were just appearing and were not allowed. As my kids were going through school, not only were calculators required, but the expensive, multi-functional ones were the ones required. Today, my grandkids are using computers in 3rd & 4th grade. What happened to memorizing the multiplication tables?

Bookkeepers did their work by hand, now they use computers. Just put in a number and the program does the rest.

Blueprints use to be done "by hand." Now there are point and click programs that does most of the work for you.

No one hand writes a letter anymore, email has taken over. Nobody wants to handle paper anymore, "email it", apply online, buy online, etc.... Paper handlers cost us too much, online speeds up the process and reduces the number of people needed to do the same job.

I could keep making a list, but I think you get my drift. As you progress through life, a job, a game, anything, the idea is to do it faster and with fewer people. The bottom line is about doing something in as little time and with as little effort as possible to complete the task at hand.

Suppose you are responsible for payroll in a 10 year old company, the boss comes in and unplugs your computer and tells you "You're going too fast, and the competition, a 2 year old company, is bitching."

or

The IT guy comes in and uninstalls your Windows 7/Vista, then installs Windows 2000, again because the competition can't keep up or afford to get it.

I guess the Vocal 'company' got into Anet's, the boss, ear and had the clock rolled back in terms of getting things done quickly.

QueenofDeath · Apr 22, 2010, 05:43 AM // 05:43

The main thing is there should be no "running for dollars" in any of these games. Everything should be earned by each individual player not by exploiting the game mechanics by running through the content YOU are suppose to fight. Thus, I am rather very happy they have helped to stop a lot of the running. This has been an issue since the Droknar runs of Prophecies that first began ruining the game in the very beginning with this running through the content to get to the high end armor and skills and other gears (weapons and offhands).
Anything that thwarts exploiting the game mechanics or running through the content I'm all for. Continue this Anet and I'll be a fan for life. Force people to PLAY the damn game or quit I don't care but at least those left will be PLAYERS and not SCAMMERS or EXPLOITERS.

UnChosen · Apr 22, 2010, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

The main thing is there should be no "running for dollars" in any of these games. Everything should be earned by each individual player not by exploiting the game mechanics by running through the content YOU are suppose to fight. Thus, I am rather very happy they have helped to stop a lot of the running. This has been an issue since the Droknar runs of Prophecies that first began ruining the game in the very beginning with this running through the content to get to the high end armor and skills and other gears (weapons and offhands).
Anything that thwarts exploiting the game mechanics or running through the content I'm all for. Continue this Anet and I'll be a fan for life. Force people to PLAY the damn game or quit I don't care but at least those left will be PLAYERS and not SCAMMERS or EXPLOITERS.

I don't considering letting bots (H/h) play the game while the player sit and chat any more "normal" than runners and farmers. If anything it is even LESS skilled because at least runners and farmers need to learn the map mechanics and mob locations first. For all the talk about "exploit" and "overpowered" builds, I see far more speed clears, runners, and farmers fail in comparison to hero teams running an Xway build.

I do agree that the "exploitive" mechanics to go though....but it should be done AFTER they jack up the drop 10 times+ (removal of loot scale and drop nerfs, addition of drops to make the area attractive (No F**king two gems), an addition premium to take into the fact that most group fails many times, and EVEN MORE to take into account that its taking longer and longer to group because everyone is "botting") so that its actually worth it to play normally.

QueenofDeath · Apr 22, 2010, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Well I agree with you about botting as well and what they should do about that is REQUIRE access to everyones computer who plays the game to do a SEARCH for 3rd Party BOT programs and if/when they find it on players computers just permanently ban them. Simple enough. Hell most of the time our computers are monitored without hour permission anyway so might just as well use it to find cheaters and botters and get rid of them in ALL games online.

My belief is if you AREn't disobeying the LAW(s) you wouldn't mind if anyone looked inside your computer anyway for SPECIFIC things that violate the LAW. I have no qualms about them searching MY computer for 3rd party violations because I don't break the LAW of the GAME.

Arduin · Apr 22, 2010, 02:16 PM // 14:16

I have qualms about them searching my computer, even if it is just for 3rd party violations.

Neith · Apr 22, 2010, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Correct me if i'm wrong but it seems people are saying make the drops better and people will play....wth are they getting this idea? If they make the drops "better" the speedclears will still continue and there will be more of them....that won't stop the SC it will make them worse because now they can get better loot, better items, equals more in game gold which means prices are driven either to the ground or sky rocket. How is making drops in the game better when we all know the speedclears will still continue? Get rid of the speedclears then add better drops, if you want better drops.

WarcryOfTruth · Apr 22, 2010, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

The discussion is time vs effort. Of course it's not impossible to do dungeons in HM. Question is if the time it takes is worth the effort. Doing a one hour (or longer) run and find some crap in the end chest is not worth the effort. Doing 3 20 minutes run for the same chest just makes the difference. It's the rewards that make the game imbalanced, not the skills!

Yes, that is the question. If it takes an hour or more, and you get "crap", that is not something you can control. And what you're saying, or how I interpreted it, was that the longer you're in a dungeon the better your drops should be. When that can simply just cause people to go afk after killing the dungeon boss for hours and come back and get the more desired thing out of the chest. Something like that, that wouldn't be a great idea either. They should slow down the times it takes to speed clear, if it means Smiter's Booning the skills fine, do that. Or make them to the point where they cannot be maintained, like Spell Breaker, and requires them to think about how to use the skills effectively.

Everybody remembers Ursan Blessing I'm sure yes? Well, people think it sucks now because it has downtime that cannot be changed. In other words, it lasts 60 seconds rather than being able to be kept up indefinitely. Well, I use Ursan now, very religiously, HM vanquishing is fast with it, faster then even using a Discord team or other gimmick, I use a Fire ele, an MM, and a Healing Light hybrid monk. Average time of vanquishes is 40 minutes for Elona, I don't need those stupid slow ass gimmicks that everybody abuses. Sorry, that is WAY off topic, but the point of that little tirade, was to show that Ursan is still very viable, one just has to think about its use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaurosis

That's the problem. Everyone is under the impression those high-end areas were meant to be cleared in <30 minutes. People didn't put in any time as they ran farming builds/speedclears that provided too good results for pretty much no effort. And because of this flaw everyone grinded to farm high-end areas. I highly doubt that UW was meant to be cleared 15+ times per day by one person(considering if they were able to perform a UWSC in <20min). Anyone could learn how to run SF in less than a day and in return would be able to farm high-end areas for great rewards. There was never an equal balance between the Time+Effort vs. the Rewards.

As for the rewards, they were balanced. Otherwise everyone running Kathandrax or doing UWSC all day long would be obtaining Obsidian and Emerald Edges every 20min or so run. And now that some of the builds are useless/less effective in some areas people are upset because now they're effort+time will have the match the reward output(which should have happened from the start) they've become so accustomed to. As a result people are claiming that some areas are now impossible because the only experience they have in those places was derived from builds merely intended to farm(there are actually people who only know how to run SF and have no idea where to begin in a structured build to play in these "high-end areas").

People were taught to be lazy and receive exponential rewards for it.

I agree with you sir, hands down. High End areas were not meant for times of 30 minutes, some not even meant for an hour. I think people want to learn them as a way to get rich fast, and then abuse them for personal gain. As I stated previously, make the recharges of Obsidian Flesh and Shadow Form similar to Spell Breaker, with no possible way of maintaining either, and issues such as speed clears will hardly be an issue anymore. Spell Breaker has a 45 second recharge, at 16 Divine it lasts 18 seconds, or lets say 17 Divine, if you're using a conset, it lasts 19 seconds, it will not recharge fast enough, unless you have a HSR and get lucky, which is not something people will rely on every single time. Turning Obsidian Flesh into the same recharge, and duration, solves that problem. Shadow Form is a little special, however, in that you can use Deadly Paradox AND Swiftness to maintain it, which at 45 seconds is obviously possible. That can be fixed though, either by increasing the recharge or doing something like you deal 50% less damage, similar to how it was at one point in its history. That way, the skills are viable, just require thinking, and back up plans for when the skills are down, so that the users are not just relying on the one skill to keep themselves alive.

Shadowhaze · Apr 22, 2010, 02:48 PM // 14:48

I wouldn't want anyone scanning my computer either (no, I don't use bots. lol). Frankly what I have on my comp isn't their business. I like my privacy, thank you.

As mentioned, somehow killing the speed clears then introducing better loot would be nice, but how they would do that would be a thing...and also if other speedy clears came out, well they would be busy/behind schedule perhaps in taking care of them.

And Perkunas has a point. Yet on the other hand, new methods of doing things don't have the charm of old things imo (ex - hand written letters ;P).

Essence Snow · Apr 22, 2010, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

Yes, that is the question. If it takes an hour or more, and you get "crap", that is not something you can control. And what you're saying, or how I interpreted it, was that the longer you're in a dungeon the better your drops should be. When that can simply just cause people to go afk after killing the dungeon boss for hours and come back and get the more desired thing out of the chest. Something like that, that wouldn't be a great idea either. They should slow down the times it takes to speed clear, if it means Smiter's Booning the skills fine, do that. Or make them to the point where they cannot be maintained, like Spell Breaker, and requires them to think about how to use the skills effectively.

Everybody remembers Ursan Blessing I'm sure yes? Well, people think it sucks now because it has downtime that cannot be changed. In other words, it lasts 60 seconds rather than being able to be kept up indefinitely. Well, I use Ursan now, very religiously, HM vanquishing is fast with it, faster then even using a Discord team or other gimmick, I use a Fire ele, an MM, and a Healing Light hybrid monk. Average time of vanquishes is 40 minutes for Elona, I don't need those stupid slow ass gimmicks that everybody abuses. Sorry, that is WAY off topic, but the point of that little tirade, was to show that Ursan is still very viable, one just has to think about its use.

I agree with you sir, hands down. High End areas were not meant for times of 30 minutes, some not even meant for an hour. I think people want to learn them as a way to get rich fast, and then abuse them for personal gain. As I stated previously, make the recharges of Obsidian Flesh and Shadow Form similar to Spell Breaker, with no possible way of maintaining either, and issues such as speed clears will hardly be an issue anymore. Spell Breaker has a 45 second recharge, at 16 Divine it lasts 18 seconds, or lets say 17 Divine, if you're using a conset, it lasts 19 seconds, it will not recharge fast enough, unless you have a HSR and get lucky, which is not something people will rely on every single time. Turning Obsidian Flesh into the same recharge, and duration, solves that problem. Shadow Form is a little special, however, in that you can use Deadly Paradox AND Swiftness to maintain it, which at 45 seconds is obviously possible. That can be fixed though, either by increasing the recharge or doing something like you deal 50% less damage, similar to how it was at one point in its history. That way, the skills are viable, just require thinking, and back up plans for when the skills are down, so that the users are not just relying on the one skill to keep themselves alive.

They (A Net) have to know that SCs are only viable due to constant spell protection. Physical dmg has never been an issue as one can simple dodge and/or run past it. Nerfing recharge times of constant anti-spell skills will nerf SCs. You know this, I know this, and they have to know this....which makes me question A Net's opinion of SCs. If they really wanted to get rid and/or slow down SCs then they would have addressed the anti-spell issue not buffing anti-spell. Granted I enjoy SCs, almost to the point of feeling spoiled, yet I would care less if they went away.

odins daughter · Apr 22, 2010, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

The main thing is there should be no "running for dollars" in any of these games. Everything should be earned by each individual player not by exploiting the game mechanics by running through the content YOU are suppose to fight. Thus, I am rather very happy they have helped to stop a lot of the running. This has been an issue since the Droknar runs of Prophecies that first began ruining the game in the very beginning with this running through the content to get to the high end armor and skills and other gears (weapons and offhands).
Anything that thwarts exploiting the game mechanics or running through the content I'm all for. Continue this Anet and I'll be a fan for life. Force people to PLAY the damn game or quit I don't care but at least those left will be PLAYERS and not SCAMMERS or EXPLOITERS.

WHY shouldnt running for dollars be part of the game? What always made GW a great game for me was its diversity, if everyone was restricted to only playing one way, GW would of died years ago.

I completed all chapters and every minor quest with 3 chars, then Zaishen came into the scene, requiring that I redo all the main quests over and over again, to attain master of the north we have to redo the dungeons (not including VQ) over and over again.
Fighting is not everything tO GW, runners was just another small part of the jigsaw, you say the Droknar runs ruined the game?why? you have a choice ...you either went with a PUG/Guild or H/H OR you paid a runner.
Noone was forced to pay a runner it all came down to choice.#
One small point about the scammers...there was just as many Pug scammers as there was runners that scammed.

One more point id like to raise, is considering some people complained about the runners there was NEVER a shortage of people that was willing to use them.